I have adjusted the charts to show 2300+ instead of 2400+ after feedback due to the small sample size at such high ratings.
I finally got round to scanning the US armory so here we go.
US stats for entire armory: 167,534 active* teams and 390,988 active* players using Personal Rating.
*more than 0 games played
I have changed the chart to use a % similar to the data Kalgan posted, with 100% being the ideal (11.1% representation). What is obvious is just how popular druids and warrs are, with druids reaching a rather silly 240% in 2v2 @2300+.
Hope you find these useful :)
2v2
3v3
5v5
Would it be possible to see a graph with absolute numbers instead of percentages. Or perhaps with "players above xxx rating" to compare with kalgan's numbers.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you could even post the spreadsheet used to make the diagrams so we could play around a bit in excel?
I could probably post the raw data showing the numbers at each bracket.
ReplyDeleteI don't have the data in excel, it is all held in SQL server and the charts created on my dev web server. However if I post the raw data in a summarised form you would be able to play with it so I will see what I can.
note: Removed some comments which were spam referring people to a malicious site (xpenprotect).
ReplyDeletesounds great
ReplyDeletevery interesting to see that there's really no class balance. blizzard sucks at pvp balancing ...
ReplyDeleteStill worthless.
ReplyDeleteYou are not adding spec.
So you are missing out on
Resto vs other
MS vs Prot
you cannot normalize for population against other classes that have one main spec.
spider the armory on sat-monday when most arena takes place and validate these numbers against spec.
what are you normalizing against...full population of X class or total population in your sample?
I am not sure normalizing should be done here.
ReplyDeleteLow population on a realm where you can instantly roll a geared 70 of the class you want means that there is no reason to normalize.
Part of the class balance is shown in the numbers of a class rolled to use. Normalization would be correct if you had to level a character to use from 1-70 and then gear it.
On the tournament realm, the most important graphs are the unnormalized, but in general they both show the same trends anyway.
Again shows how Blizzard has created a system where players have not equal chances of progressing in. DPS warriors dominate this chart. Funny considering Kalgan (lead class balance dev) plays DPS warrior...
ReplyDeleteShows how naive and incompitend current Blizzard team is. Also shows why ppl should find another MMO where all players have equal chance of progressing long term.
re. talent specs.
ReplyDeleteLack of spec does not make the data worthless. Yes, spec would make the data more complete but it still shows the popularity of a class at any particular rating regardless of spec.
Also, many people respec for PvE and especially at the higher ratings this can make the data misleading.
re. normalisation on US/EU realms.
I use warcraftrealms data for population as a whole. Please note however that this data is just another part of the jigsaw and is really only relevant where class population is low (e.g. shaman) as over-population is less likely to be limited by the laws of supply and demand.
re. normalisation on tournament realms.
Absolutely, I have no intention of showing normalised data for the tounrament realms.
Well done.
ReplyDeleteYou managed to show what:
http://www.realmhistory.net/arena-statistics/class-breakdown.html
already does, with different numbers, in a more confusing fashion!
Except I show sub-2k? And it depends on preference, personally I prefer the graph.
ReplyDeleteLOL NERF WARRIORS ALREDY!!!OP *****-ES
ReplyDeletewarriors aren't the problem, the insta cast + healing spells is what the problem is, with the + healing obtainable in this game. That is what throws everything off. Make druids actually have to cast, and a warrior isn't nearly the problem as he is now.
ReplyDelete"I use warcraftrealms data for population as a whole."
ReplyDeleteWHY would you take a sub population and compair it to the whole population?
if your data pulled " 390,988 active* players using Personal Rating."...then this is what it should be normalized against. normalizing it against population that DOES NOT PVP is wrong and misleading. this will only help the larger played classes look less represented.
10,000 people pvp
1,000 are warriors at 2200
or
1,000,000 warriors play total
1,000 are warriors at 2200
VS
10,000 people pvp
1,000 are druids at 2200
or
50,000 druids play total
1,000 druids are at 2200.
you have now just made druids look much higher then they really are because they have a much lower "total" population.
if 10,000 people pvp...and both warriors and druids are at 1000 2200+ then they are EQUAL...you cannot bring in people to the population that DONT PVP.
The problem is, take away the best healer (druid) and warriors would dominate the new druidless teams as well with a different heale (remember s1 warrior pally?) The endless dps of the rage mechanic combined with the incredible amount of damage warriors deal means they are simply too powerful at the moment. In 2s and especially 3s I hardly ever see non melee teams, and warriors are the basis of a large % of 5s - just too good.
ReplyDelete"I use warcraftrealms data for population as a whole."
ReplyDeleteWHY would you take a sub population and compair it to the whole population?
-------
Because, if there are only 100 druids in the US then you are never going to see more than 100 druids in the arena, saying 100 druids = 100% population would be meaningless.
The normalisation is there for those people who asked for it, however you have to be careful how you read it as it is really only relevant to low-pop classes where supply and demand can cause problems and is based on the assumption that each class has a similar % inclined to do Arenas
"the assumption that each class has a similar % inclined to do Arenas"
ReplyDeleteI believe that this is a false assumption.
Due to the "Legolas Effect", the Easiest Class to level effect, and the favorite class of the farmers effect, there are huge numbers of hunters who have no real desire to Arena.
Wars are another popular class who are often the first choice of any new player to the game or people who enjoy taking tanking (or leadership) positions in pve and have no desire to respec for Arena.
Free epics for people with crap ratings causes everyone who isnt even interested in pvp to participate in hopes of some points every week.
Alot of PvP Shaman (The cause of 50% of the pvp QQ on Official forums during WoW's first year) have quit out of fustration and are at the lowest pop level ever. The guys who have some success are sticking to the class but as fustrated PvP shaman quit in droves their representation numbers increase according to these "population" weighted numbers.
The "population weighted numbers" have some serious issues.
"the assumption that each class has a similar % inclined to do Arenas"
ReplyDeleteI believe that this is a false assumption.
Normalisation does have it's flaws I agree, but for some it also has it's value so long as you don't put too much import on its numbers but just use it as a very rough guide.
Well, I assume, the druid-war teams going so well becouse there are no curve-handed players. Only one thing makes me worry: why all n00bs playing hunters?
ReplyDeleteCan you make a colorblind friendly version?
ReplyDeleteI can't distinguish the classes very well at all...
"The normalisation is there for those people who asked for it, "
ReplyDeletethey asked for normalization, but not the way you are doing it.
re-run the population again against only those who pvp vs the entire population.
if the baseline representation is less then 100 then you note your findings as inconclusive based on population, but this will be more accurate then your very flawed bases of doing it by the total 2-3m population. it tells us not anything near the truth.
try it. it might end up being the same...might tell the whole picture...come on i'll give you a cookie?
love it. is it possible to get a breakdown by specs?
ReplyDeletelooks like hunters, shamen and mages are pretty bad off. hopefully things will be done to bring them up to par with the rest of the classes.
ReplyDeletethey asked for normalization, but not the way you are doing it.
ReplyDeleteActually they did :)
Regardless, I find more value in population-based as opposed to scan-based as the armory is limited to 5000 teams per battlegroup so any population data based on scan is meaningless.
love it. is it possible to get a breakdown by specs?
I intend to do a weekly (or thereabouts) class breakdown once I sort my code, the first class will be Mages.
"re-run the population again against only those who pvp vs the entire population"
ReplyDeleteI would go a step further and remove those with sub 1450 ratings or so. There are huge numbers of people who are not attempting to compete in arena at all and are only playing to free points.
You see it in chat every week "LF any class to do min games for free points this week".
At this point in the season, anyone who is even vaguely trying is above 1400 rating.
This is interesting and throws more information that kalgans attempt at showing numbers. Much much better than his.
ReplyDeleteWell done.
I look forward to seeing the further breakdown via specs.
it would help, if you would devide the Druid chart into the 3 skill Tree settings (feral balance mookin)
ReplyDeleteSpec is not really needed. Alternative specs are only a little part of the population.
ReplyDeleteAbout normalization, it doesn't matter, since all the graphs are almost identical in trends. The only exceptions are hunters, that can be explained by the farming ppl that don't do anything but farm, and shamans in 5v5, that I'd explain it with players that don't worth a penny in 2v2 and less in 3v3 likes to play the only bracket they can... that in sum of the low shaman population can mess the data...
Anyways...
What really needs attention, is that druid is the only healer up there, and his best partners (war, rogue and lock) are the only classes with similar trend lines (in 2v2, and 3v3, mage boosted a little in this bracket due to rogue/mage/priest), and priest showed to be a mediocre replacement for druid as partner for war, rogue and lock.
Sad that blizzard don't do anything about it. The only thing they need is to get some stored procedures on their databases to do some incredible data mining and get accurate information. I can bet that the results are the same.
I'm also sad that the fix to this is really easy... nerf druids, and you will see druid, warrior, lock and rogue fall into the target zone, as well as giving the opportunity to other classes to reach the target zone... probably, after that they will need to nerf rogues or maybe priests, but time can tell that
Nice work.
And for spec breakdown, i guess you need to parse the armory several times (using mean values if they stay in the same team, discard if they change)and take the spec only if they are wearing his insignia, or at least 4 pvp set pieces
WTF!!!
ReplyDeleteDruids with the best kiting abilities in the game, and no casting time, with no drawback compared to other healing classes, is the best for small scale PVP.
OMG WHAT A F*CKING SURPRISE I FALL OF MY CHAIR!
poor, poor Hunters :(
ReplyDeleteWhy do people whine about pvp. I myself play a healing druid and thats all they got is their hots there heals aint worth squat in pve cept for topping off a tank and raid healing so if you nerf a druid just for pvp then they would be worthless in all other aspects of the game. As far as making it equal there are plenty of make ups out there that make it equal not to mention the game play of the person playing if you try and make it all equal it dont matter cause some people just dont know how to play there toons.
ReplyDeleteNot really. They just need to adjust the talent tree so a druid with pve spec remains unchanged, and the pvp druid needs to struggle with the points just as every other class do... i guess furor should be swapped with nurturing instincts. So they need to go deep in feral combat to have offensive feral charge and pounce, having to decide if they want to be an offensive healer with interrupts 0/21/40), a defensive one with better heals and insect swarm + improved cyclone range (13/0/48), or an offensive one with burst, maybe 21/0/40 (this last spec also needing a nerf compared to other arena healers)
ReplyDeleteSo, if you are worried about their pve capabilities being nerfed, blizz actually need to buff the druids in 5v5, that means making him more healers, less hybrids, boosting pve capabilities as well. I think they need some kind of pain suppression like spell deep in resto tree (maybe shared with treeform, or add the spell to treeform at low mana cost)...
I'd really like to see the same graph with spec break down. I think you should do it, and assume that 40points in one talent tree is the main spec.
ReplyDeleteI hate other site that have the 5 most play spec, 3 of which are resto with only one or 2 points different in an other tree ^^
I want a reason to be sad with my Enh. Shaman :)
I am adjusting my code atm to allow me to do a more advanced scan of all players of a specfic class in my db.
ReplyDeleteI will then scan Mages first and do a similar chart with spec breakdown. :)
rough eta about a week unless work/RL stuff intervenes too much.
Hi Vhiari, i hope you're not intimidated too much by those people who use rather strong terms to denounce your research. I think some of these replies are actually rather rude.
ReplyDeleteI am one of the people who are glad you do a normalised version aswell. Just like you did it.
All the arguments they have against it, don't weigh up for me to the insights it shows.
And i don't think you should normalise only against those who chose to do pvp, because then if warriors are the only viable class and everyone rerolls a warrior, the normalised version will show that it's perfectly balanced.
Normalising against the entire population makes perfect sense since blizzard attempts to make every class (though not every spec) equaly viable for arena.
Howmany people of a certain class play arena is, thus, another indicator for the pvp performance of that class.
I agree it is not perfect this way, but with knowing what other factors may influence this, it is still valuable and the closest thing to perfect you can achieve i think.
I also like your graphs because not only they show the movement over different ratings, but combined with your previous graphs, they show trends over different ratings over time where for instance the 'over 2200' category of realmhistory does not quite mean the same thing now as it did 2 or 3 months ago.
All in all i want to thank you a lot for doing all this work! I hope you keep doing it.
-Garbiddle
Big thanks and it is for the reasons you posted that I will continue to do a normalised version for live realm data.
ReplyDeleteThis information is quite fantastic and we thank you for making it available to us.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to all the controversy regarding warriors being over powered for PVP, please don't make me laugh. Warriors one versus one versus any class of similar gear almost always loses due to having no self heals or crowd control mecahanism.
However the Warrior as a support class working with a Druid truly shines as the Druid can crowd control and throw heals over time thus eliminating the innate weaknesses of the Warrior and transforming it into a killing machine.
I have soloed with my Warrior in PVP and PVE situations and have done par to sub par at best compared to the rest of the classes. However, once I have a good healer behind me, the class shines like no other. I think last week I did 10 Arena duels on my warrior and my druid only had 2 pieces of season 1 gear and we won 7 out of 10 playing against well geared rogues, shamans, warriors, mages, locks, etc.
The point is, the Warrior/Druid combination is a force to be reckoned with. After my druid healed me through the initial attack, we found ourselves against casters "Out Of Mana" and I with full health and a full bar of rage and power moves. The results were carnage as we pretty much destroyed every other possible arena 2v2 combination. Warrior/Druids are an awesome combination for PVP and 2200 rating and Season 4 gear...here I come. :)
Regards,
Jayofteror
to the above comment - so you think you have no crowd control? LOL - try attempting to track down and kill a highly mobile target (druid) while constantly noobstrung and improved noobstrung - while being pummeled during casts to heal, intercepted and mace stunned. oh, and when that isn't happening, you get cycloned over and over again, the only non-dispellable CC in the game without a cooldown.
ReplyDeleteyes, warriors are not OP, and neither are druids.
get to 1900 rating or above and then tell me they aren't OP.
Wait so you are not going to normalize against only the PVP population because one person said they don't want people rerolling to that class??
ReplyDelete___________________
"because then if warriors are the only viable class and everyone rerolls a warrior, the normalised version will show that it's perfectly balanced."
__________________
No it will show a very large population of warriors....and if there is a lot of them in the top ranking then it would be correct.
For instance you cannot do a sample of how many women play sports then normalize it against the TOTAL POPULATION OF THE WORLD.
that would then pull in MEN....but your question was "how many women"
so if you are asking the question "what is the percentage of X class that pvp's and is it more or less then everyone else as it relates to the total number of people who are doing pvp?"
You want to only include the population of PVP'ers...not the full population.
it is also not a consistant value of each class and what percentage of that class pvp's. so a class that has a lower % that pvp's will suffer and a class that has a higher % that pvp's will not.
_____________
"How many people of a certain class play arena is, thus, another indicator for the pvp performance of that class. "
_______________
This is a wrong assumption. there are some people that just dont want to pvp. this is, remember a PVE game that two years into the game has added PVP. i have never done arena on my shaman and 30 total games on my druid. i have no desire to pvp on my shaman why would you include it in the sample.
.
.
i ask that you try and post both results and see what the differences are. its not hard since its taking a population of 400k as your baseline instead of caculating it against 2million.
it should not be a major change since you are not changing the querey just the calc's on the final percentages.
It says jack,.
ReplyDeleteGraphs aint specific enough to depend on.
Take it further, and implennt every Arenaitem rewarded spec there is.
Graphs like these are the reason why feral / moonkins gets cycloned nurfed e.g.
Would it be possible to get it in Excel for us color blind people ?
ReplyDeleteActually, I'd prefer it in SQL. Sorry, but your graphs are a bit...lacking? No offense, but if I could get ahold of the SQL I'd love to convert it to something more detailed, probably with some AJAX chart or something.
ReplyDeleteOh, what flavor of SQL did you put it in? I think MySQL is delicious.
I have a BM Hunter and I would consider him overpowered. But seeing this data makes me think that I need more buffs and Druids need nerfs.
ReplyDeleteYou can never be too good. Except resto Duids.
Great job, thanx.
ReplyDeleteVery informative.
It would be also very interesting, if you could figure out some correlations between ratings of each class. Something like MS Warrior has high rating only if he plays with druid (in 2v2), or vice versa.
Thanx.
if you could figure out some correlations between ratings of each class. Something like MS Warrior has high rating only if he plays with druid (in 2v2), or vice versa.
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經濟不景氣，討論借錢的話題很多人應開有興趣，在台北想借錢或者汽車借款可以到台北當舖或者是台北市當舖，台北縣當舖當然也可以，如果是住在台北火車站到台北市當舖借錢比較方便。那我住在內湖就可以到內湖區當舖借錢融資囉!住在東區就找信義區當舖借錢，以此類推。一般支票貼現也有辦理，銀行有辦理票貼，當舖也有阿，而且比銀行更方便，利息雖然高一點不過時效性卻非常好，一般工商人士短期借款就很喜歡到當舖的原因。我家現在住在桃園想融資票貼就得到桃園當舖，住新竹的人往新竹當舖借貸是比較方便。來到台中手頭不方便，想週轉借貸一下台中當舖是有這樣的服務，報紙或者網路上隨時都可以查到台中
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